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snarles2
HCO
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 1741
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure if the Sombrero actually works off Attack, or Atk+Def/2. Its always been stated ML, but monsters don't really have a set ML anymore... |
Seems like the best way to test this is with the worm wood monsters or other such scaling beasties, right? |
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Oxbarn
Hard as a math test
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 196
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: Re: The Monster Survival Guide! (09/9/07) |
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| Kittiwake wrote: |
| FINAL UPDATE (09/9/07): I'm sad to say, but I'm leaving KoL. |
Aw! I'm sad to hear that. Good luck in whatever more sensible hobby you take up next, and thanks for keeping this guide up for so long; it's been a wonderful contribution to the community. Take care. |
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MagiNinjA
Hard as Pat Buchanan
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 462
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Indeed, good luck and enjoy whatever you do! You've been a very awesome contribution to KoL, and all of us. |
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IvanGS
flufflycuddlehugglebunny!
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 565
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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Stupid 'brand new day' =/
Will miss you, Kitti.
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The Other Emanon
Firm Like a Handshake
Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 14
Location: (#441708)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Kittiwake, thank you for dedicating so much of your time to this. This guide was the reason I first bookmarked the HCO forums.
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Sadly, not #665778. Is it odd that I have that ID memorized? |
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BDrag0n
Harder than Hardcore
Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I am sorry to see you go, Kittiwake. I wish you well, and hope that wherever you're headed you get something worthy of your abilities. |
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Opethian
DIAMOND HARD
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 1026
Location: Fort Leonard Wood, MO
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
| feng shweez wrote: |
| In this respect--and, in fact, in all other respects, listen to Opethian. |
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Cristiona
DIAMOND HARD
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 1655
Location: Hallucinating through Goofball withdrawl.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| IvanGS wrote: |
| Stupid 'brand new day' =/ |
QFT
Take care Kittiwake. We'll miss you. |
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Veracity
HCO
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to see you go. 
Good luck in the new activities that will open up for you with your newly available hours! |
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shoptroll
Hard as a math test
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 288
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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Maybe you'll stop by and visit us again sometime?
_________________
1'm in ur f0rums st34ling ur sp33d...
"Everything you know is wrong" - Marble Madness
Like a crack addict going back for more: http://jick-nerfed.us/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4073 |
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QuantumNightmare
Hard as a math test
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| A lot of this information is now out of date.... monster defence is 90% of monster attack, which is 10% lower than it used to be in NS11. Is this still the master list of monster data, or do things like mafia parse from a different updated table? |
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Mighty Xerxes
Harder than Hardcore
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| QuantumNightmare wrote: |
| A lot of this information is now out of date.... monster defence is 90% of monster attack, which is 10% lower than it used to be in NS11. Is this still the master list of monster data, or do things like mafia parse from a different updated table? |
It would appear that this list is the information Veracity still uses for KoLmafia, based on her post yesterday on the main forums
| Veracity wrote: |
I like this idea, but one wrinkle is that KoLmafia DOESN'T have an estimate of ML for monsters that were added after Kittiwake stopped spading monsters - which includes, probably, most of the monsters you'd actually try applying flyers to. I added this to my list, but don't expect a speedy resolution.
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Yiab is still spading new item drops, but I'm not aware of anyone working on ML. Or more to the point, ML/attack data that can be parsed for mafia.
The wiki seems to have a lot of updated ML/attack data for NS-13 mobs. Most of it is probably based on stat gains, and there is no evidence that it has been spaded with the thoroughness Kittiwake employed. Still, even if it is not as reliable, there might be some way to automate scraping the data from the wiki and outputting it into some form that Veracity could use for mafia. |
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Kittiwake
HCO
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 973
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| QuantumNightmare wrote: |
| A lot of this information is now out of date.... monster defence is 90% of monster attack, which is 10% lower than it used to be in NS11. Is this still the master list of monster data, or do things like mafia parse from a different updated table? |
If you're 100% certain that this is correct, I suppose I can go an update all the old numbers to reflect this. It'll be a mondo-boring task, but eh, I'll do it.
So do I have this right then? Monster Attack is 10% lower than NS11, and Monster Defence is 90% of that lowered figure?
I'll get around to this sometime soon. Maybe the week-end.
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Sir, I just have to point out that you smell.
No. Yes. Sorry. I'll shut up. |
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QuantumNightmare
Hard as a math test
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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I phrased that wrong. Monster defence is now 90% of attack. Attack hasn't been changed. In cases where defence was not linked to attack, defence is now 90% of the NS-11 value.
In effect, all values for monster defence have dropped 10% compared to what they were in NS11. |
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starwed
Hard as a math test
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe there should be a renewed large scale project to investigate the new base attack, defense, and HP of all monsters.
With enough people participating, it really wouldn't take very long.
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charred
Hard as Steel
Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 688
Location: Colonie, NY USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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probably finish up just before everything changes again with ns15 
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Kittiwake
HCO
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 973
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| QuantumNightmare wrote: |
I phrased that wrong. Monster defence is now 90% of attack. Attack hasn't been changed. In cases where defence was not linked to attack, defence is now 90% of the NS-11 value.
In effect, all values for monster defence have dropped 10% compared to what they were in NS11. |
Ah, right. How about rounding then, do you know that?
Also, not that I don't believe you, but wheres the proof of this? Whether its intesive spading by someone, Jick stating it on air or some dev leaking it, I'm just curious. (I was told by a dev about the defense drop a while ago, but nothing specific)
| Quote: |
| Maybe there should be a renewed large scale project to investigate the new base attack, defense, and HP of all monsters |
DirkDiggler wrote some Perl scripts that could do some hardcore parsing from mafia logs to produce usable results. Its effectively automated spading, so if enough people are interested, I'll post how to set it all up...
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Sir, I just have to point out that you smell.
No. Yes. Sorry. I'll shut up. |
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Ataradan
Hard to the Core
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 42
Location: California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| I'd be willing to donate my mafia logs =) |
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QuantumNightmare
Hard as a math test
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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A spade isn't a spade if he doesn't ask to see the data. After Crawly mentioned that something was up on these forums, KujjieKujjieKoo and I went to figure out details.
A few hundred turns of this are posted on AFH, the rest is on my computer. This is a portion of the data, which is characteristic of the whole. The data is formatted according to (Monster defence) : (# of occurrences).
Fractions are rounded up. See the fun house and basement data for verification. Goatlet has too much ML variation, but the averages still work out to 90% rounded up.
Basement:
34ML: 31 defence
40ML: 36 defence
60ML: 54 defence
126ML: 114 defence
154ML: 139 defence
Goatlet (All monsters have 68 base ML)
Sabre tooth goat
59 : 13
60 : 36
61 : 44
62 : 62
63 : 66
64 : 17
Average: 61.77 defence
Drunk Goat
59 : 19
60 : 34
61 : 42
62 : 54
63 : 94
64 : 11
Average: 61.88 defence
Dairy Goat
59 : 9
60 : 36
61 : 47
62 : 55
63 : 78
64 : 15
Average: 61.84 defence
Totals
59 : 041 (5.60%)
60 : 106 (14.48%)
61 : 133 (18.17%)
62 : 171 (23.36%)
63 : 238 (32.51%)
64 : 043 (5.87%)
Average: 61.80 defence
Funhouse
Lemon-in-a-box (17 base ML)
16 : 112
Disease-in-a-box (18 base ML)
17 : 117
Bugbear-in-a-box (18 base ML)
17 : 107
Shaky Clown (19 base ML)
18 : 112
Scary Clown (19 base ML)
18 : 114
Creepy Clown (20 base ML)
18 : 81
19 : 22
| Kittiwake wrote: |
| DirkDiggler wrote some Perl scripts that could do some hardcore parsing from mafia logs to produce usable results. Its effectively automated spading, so if enough people are interested, I'll post how to set it all up... |
I wrote up a perl script to collect these results from DEBUG logs. If you fight barehanded with buffed muscle more than four times monster defence, it's easy to automate thousands of turns. |
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Kittiwake
HCO
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 973
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Ah, cool. Thanks for the results, you've convinced me now =p
| Quote: |
| I'd be willing to donate my mafia logs =) |
Cheers for the offer, but unfortunately unless you've set up your character to specifically spade stats, then its unlikely general adventure logs would have much in the way of useful info. Might be able to get XP values if you weren't running +XP/ML or on a stat day, but thats about it.
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Sir, I just have to point out that you smell.
No. Yes. Sorry. I'll shut up. |
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Macman104
DIAMOND HARD
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1085
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:40 am Post subject: |
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If someone can post info about how to they'd like turns to be conducted in order for the logs to used I'd be happy to take a multi out of retirement and do some spading.
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QuantumNightmare
Hard as a math test
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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My method involves damaging a monster while barehanded, and with your muscle more than four times monster ML. With this setup, you only need one data point for each monster, to test monster defence. Testing monster attack is much longer, and is probably best tested through large-scale experiments or through approximations through statgains. I don't go into that here.
Mafia logs don't contain much data, but mafia DEBUG logs contain every page you see on the screen. So if you view your messages, I'll be able to see them. Despite this, the reason I use DEBUG logs is that every combat round is recorded, and can easily be parsed in perl. As you can see, ML variation was the main thing being tested here, the drop in monster defence was a nice side-effect.
To properly setup a log for me to parse, type in the gCLI
| Code: |
debug on
status
wear
skills |
This tells me most of the information about your character. Please do not use any +ML or +damage effects, although this can be worked around.
Then adventure for a few hundred turns in any single zone, and run my log parser which you can find here. If you're not sure how to run perl scripts, post a link and I'll run them for you. |
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starwed
Hard as a math test
Joined: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Three quick questions:
- Attack is still best determined from stat distribution, correct?
- Is there a really easy way to determine HP? Or do you just have to plink the monster with combat items once it's close to death?
- Has there been any spading done on monster variance of the three stats? Specifically, is there any correlation between them?
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QuantumNightmare
Hard as a math test
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I just noticed something interesting ,numbers on AFH, using +X ML does not increase monster defence by X, only monster attack. Monster defence is then ceiling(0.9*[base ML+ X ML]). Further proof that 90% is the correct value, and something interesting to boot. |
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Kittiwake
HCO
Joined: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 973
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
To properly setup a log for me to parse, type in the gCLI
| Code: |
debug on
status
wear
skills |
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Or if you want to make it easier:
Open Notepad, copy this, and save it as Spade.cli or something. Run it when you start up mafia and it'll do all that. Saves time =p
debug on
refresh status
charpane.php
inventory.php?which=1
inventory.php?which=2
inventory.php?which=3
echo Debug on -- ready to spade
| Quote: |
| Attack is still best determined from stat distribution, correct? |
Yes. Its directly linked, so its the easiest way.
| Quote: |
| Is there a really easy way to determine HP? |
As far as I know, no. Thats pretty much it, knock it to critical and use a seal-tooth to finish it off.
| Quote: |
| Has there been any spading done on monster variance of the three stats? |
Very little, I think. What little I did into it wasn't enough to say anything conclusively.
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Sir, I just have to point out that you smell.
No. Yes. Sorry. I'll shut up. |
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salien
Hard as a math test
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Kittiwake wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Attack is still best determined from stat distribution, correct? |
Yes. Its directly linked, so its the easiest way. |
Doesn't this only work for a monster's base/average attack? My understanding is that a monster's attack varies (if the base attack is high enough to do so), but the stat gains do not. Unless determining the base/average attack is what you want, then never mind. |
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QuantumNightmare
Hard as a math test
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 195
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| Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Great to see this being updated! Now someone needs to hypnotize kittiwake and convince him to start spading again.
(btw - haunted kitchen was updated with new data, there was a minor problem with testing ML below 4) |
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